VM Webspace Ongoing Problem!!!!

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website which has a
Domain Name I have to pay for!
For Christ knows how long I have not been able to update or alter my
website because every time I try I get a "550:permission denied" message
back!
I can only update my site from my VM connection so I am totally stuffed.
I sent a message to VM faults and VM customer service over a week ago
and have had no reply! It still does not work!
Some sources say it has not worked since the beginning of the year and
they suspect a disgruntled VM emlployee has sabotaged things!
I really hope someone high up in VM reads this!!!! We are being denied a
service every other ISP provider can provide. Why not VM????!!!!
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=878593
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/80/33633663-lost-permission-on-ntl-homepage-help.html
PD

This isn't a VM group. It's a free.uk heirachy group. Try going to an
official group to vent your spleen.

--
Dougie

http://www.silverpig.me.uk

http://www.flickr.com/photos/silverpig/

http://www.dougiekinnear.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/scw.htm

2008-10-22 21:29:26 UTC

Dougie

So this is not poor service, then? Thousands of customers are paying for
something they are not getting and that is OK? You contact Faults and
Custoemr Service and get no reply? You put messages on the suppoert
newsgroups and they are ignored?
You talk to staff who have not got a clue what you are talking about?
I am so annoyed I have now, in fact addressed this problem directly to
Richard Branson's office!
I think you should rename the group if you don't want disgruntled VM
customers to come here and vent their spleen!!!!

Post by Dougie

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website which has a
Domain Name I have to pay for!
For Christ knows how long I have not been able to update or alter my
website because every time I try I get a "550:permission denied"
message back!
I can only update my site from my VM connection so I am totally
stuffed. I sent a message to VM faults and VM customer service over a
week ago and have had no reply! It still does not work!
Some sources say it has not worked since the beginning of the year and
they suspect a disgruntled VM emlployee has sabotaged things!
I really hope someone high up in VM reads this!!!! We are being denied
a service every other ISP provider can provide. Why not VM????!!!!
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=878593
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/80/33633663-lost-permission-on-ntl-homepage-help.html
PD

This isn't a VM group. It's a free.uk heirachy group. Try going to an
official group to vent your spleen.

2008-10-22 21:32:00 UTC

Thank you for backing me up KD! Looks like you have the same problem!

PD

Post by Dougie
Dougie
So this is not poor service, then? Thousands of customers are paying for
something they are not getting and that is OK? You contact Faults and
Custoemr Service and get no reply? You put messages on the suppoert
newsgroups and they are ignored?
You talk to staff who have not got a clue what you are talking about?
I am so annoyed I have now, in fact addressed this problem directly to
Richard Branson's office!
I think you should rename the group if you don't want disgruntled VM
customers to come here and vent their spleen!!!!

Post by Dougie

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website which has a
Domain Name I have to pay for!
For Christ knows how long I have not been able to update or alter my
website because every time I try I get a "550:permission denied"
message back!
I can only update my site from my VM connection so I am totally
stuffed. I sent a message to VM faults and VM customer service over a
week ago and have had no reply! It still does not work!
Some sources say it has not worked since the beginning of the year
and they suspect a disgruntled VM emlployee has sabotaged things!
I really hope someone high up in VM reads this!!!! We are being
denied a service every other ISP provider can provide. Why not
VM????!!!!
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=878593
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/80/33633663-lost-permission-on-ntl-homepage-help.html
PD

This isn't a VM group. It's a free.uk heirachy group. Try going to an
official group to vent your spleen.

Tim Dunne

2008-10-22 21:51:48 UTC

Post by PD
Thank you for backing me up KD! Looks like you have the same problem!

Remarkably, he seems to have the same IP address. Sockpuppeting just
makes you look like a nob...

Tim

--
My hearts numbered beat | Greetings from Birmingham, UK
Still echoes in this empty room |All about me: www.nervouscyclist.org
Fear wells in me, but nothing seems| Is your ISP pimping your data?
Enough to defend Dave Matthews| www.badphorm.co.uk

Dougie

2008-10-22 22:05:01 UTC

Post by PD
Thank you for backing me up KD! Looks like you have the same problem!

I think you /do/ have a problem, split personality disorder.

--
Dougie

http://www.silverpig.me.uk

http://www.flickr.com/photos/silverpig/

http://www.dougiekinnear.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/scw.htm

Tim Dunne

2008-10-22 21:48:37 UTC

Post by KD
I think you should rename the group if you don't want disgruntled VM
customers to come here and vent their spleen!!!!

Um, no. But venting in here will just get it off your chest, venting in
a support group may actually help your problem...

Are you a Businesswise customer?

Tim

Rob Stanley

2008-10-22 23:59:54 UTC

Tim Dunne after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Tim Dunne

Post by KD
I think you should rename the group if you don't want disgruntled VM
customers to come here and vent their spleen!!!!

Um, no. But venting in here will just get it off your chest, venting in
a support group may actually help your problem...
Are you a Businesswise customer?

I wouldnt have thought so tim, they get proper support and dont usually
have to resort to pointless ng rants.

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-23 08:41:35 UTC

Post by KD
I think you should rename the group if you don't want disgruntled VM
customers to come here and vent their spleen!!!!

Dougie's point was that, while you are free to vent in here all you want,
you will have to post in one of the /official/ VM groups - the .support
one - if you want VM to take any notice of you.

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

RustY ©

2008-10-23 08:26:11 UTC

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that business
use was not allowed.

Neil

2008-10-23 08:34:28 UTC

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that business
use was not allowed.

I think a lot of people try and run a business "on the cheap" and wonder why
they dont get the same service levels?

Neil

Carl Waring

2008-10-23 08:44:04 UTC

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that
business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business" use on
their residential service. You can't have prices on your VM-hosted web site
for example. I can't remember the exact details.

However, actually running a *complete* business would be a no-no.

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-23 21:34:32 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that
business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business" use
on their residential service.

you understand wrong.. not unusual for you though is it?

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-24 09:15:26 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my
website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that
business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business" use
on their residential service.

you understand wrong.. not unusual for you though is it?

Ahh yes. Personal attacks. Musn't forget to start with one of those, must
you.

Really? So what *is* the situation then?

What I said is from what I can remember of the old BY. Things may have
changed under VM but as it doesn't affect me how would I know about it?

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

{{{{{Welcome}}}}}

2008-10-24 16:36:02 UTC

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:15:26 +0100, "Carl Waring"

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my
website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that
business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business" use
on their residential service.

you understand wrong.. not unusual for you though is it?

Ahh yes. Personal attacks. Musn't forget to start with one of those, must
you.

But what do you expect when you open yourself to them time after time
after time after time?

You'd think you would have learnt by now!

--
TV Catchup.com is back online.
http://www.tvcatchup.com/?member=BexTech

Rob Stanley

2008-10-24 16:46:52 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with Virgin's
webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my
website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression that
business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business" use
on their residential service.

you understand wrong.. not unusual for you though is it?

Ahh yes. Personal attacks. Musn't forget to start with one of those, must
you.

its mt trademark.. build a bridge and get over it!

Post by Carl Waring
Really? So what *is* the situation then?

well if you got it wrong it really isnt hard to work out what is right...
give it a go and you might just get a sense of achievement out of managing
it all on your own.

Post by Carl Waring
What I said is from what I can remember of the old BY.

You were wrong then too!

Post by Carl Waring
Things may have changed under VM

Nope.

Post by Carl Waring
but as it doesn't affect me how would I know about it?

admission of being clueless on a subject is quite unlike you, but seeing as
you have I really cant understand whatever possesed you to pass comment!
Wind?

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-24 17:56:29 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with
Virgin's webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my
website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression
that business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business"
use on their residential service.

you understand wrong.. not unusual for you though is it?

Ahh yes. Personal attacks. Musn't forget to start with one of those,
must you.

its mt trademark.. build a bridge and get over it!

Post by Carl Waring
Really? So what *is* the situation then?

well if you got it wrong it really isnt hard to work out what is
right... give it a go and you might just get a sense of achievement
out of managing it all on your own.

Post by Carl Waring
What I said is from what I can remember of the old BY.

You were wrong then too!

Post by Carl Waring
Things may have changed under VM

Nope.

Post by Carl Waring
but as it doesn't affect me how would I know about it?

admission of being clueless on a subject is quite unlike you, but
seeing as you have I really cant understand whatever possesed you to
pass comment! Wind?

Ah yes. More pontification and rudeness.

Don't suppose you'll ever actually get around to answering my question.

As in....

Post by Carl Waring
So what *is* the situation then?

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-24 22:25:22 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by PD
I, and I think many others are having a real problem with
Virgin's webspace. I run a business and use VM to host my
website............

But isn't this against the terms ? I was under the impression
that business use was not allowed.

As I understand it, they do allow a certain amount of "business"
use on their residential service.

you understand wrong.. not unusual for you though is it?

Ahh yes. Personal attacks. Musn't forget to start with one of those,
must you.

its mt trademark.. build a bridge and get over it!

Post by Carl Waring
Really? So what *is* the situation then?

well if you got it wrong it really isnt hard to work out what is
right... give it a go and you might just get a sense of achievement
out of managing it all on your own.

Post by Carl Waring
What I said is from what I can remember of the old BY.

You were wrong then too!

Post by Carl Waring
Things may have changed under VM

Nope.

Post by Carl Waring
but as it doesn't affect me how would I know about it?

admission of being clueless on a subject is quite unlike you, but
seeing as you have I really cant understand whatever possesed you to
pass comment! Wind?

Ah yes. More pontification and rudeness.
Don't suppose you'll ever actually get around to answering my question.

no need.. youve already answered your own question.. youre just not smart
enough t see it.

Post by Carl Waring
As in....

Post by Carl Waring
So what *is* the situation then?

nothing has changed.. youre still quite clueless.

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-25 10:13:06 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
no need.. youve already answered your own question.. youre just not
smart enough t see it.

More insults. Also, you'd make a really lousy teacher, you know ;-)

Post by Carl Waring
As in....

Post by Carl Waring
So what *is* the situation then?

nothing has changed.. youre still quite clueless.

Yet more insults. Do you ever do anything other than insult people who you
disagree with?

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-25 13:13:34 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
no need.. youve already answered your own question.. youre just not
smart enough t see it.

More insults. Also, you'd make a really lousy teacher, you know ;-)

Post by Carl Waring
As in....

Post by Carl Waring
So what *is* the situation then?

nothing has changed.. youre still quite clueless.

Yet more insults.

fwiw that was a complement..

Post by Carl Waring
Do you ever do anything other than insult people who
you disagree with?

i have no issues with disagreement so long as the other person has a clue.
are we catching on yet?

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-26 08:38:21 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
i have no issues with disagreement so long as the other person has a
clue. are we catching on yet?

Yes. I am catching on fine. You don't like when people don't have a clue but
are quite happy not to actually give them one when they ask and will simply
carry on insulting them.

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-26 10:43:40 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
i have no issues with disagreement so long as the other person has a
clue. are we catching on yet?

Yes. I am catching on fine.

well done... this could mean thay youre finally on the road to
self-enlightenment. the first step is always the hardest.

Post by Carl Waring
You don't like when people don't have a clue

then again maybe not.. your still appear to be having a problem with
grasping/taking on board the most basic of information.

Post by Carl Waring
but are quite happy not to actually give them one when they ask

thats because youre not ready and it would just confuse you even more...
one step at a time.

Post by Carl Waring
and will simply carry on insulting them.

and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-27 08:53:16 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

Yeah. It says I'm done with you, you moron.

How's that?

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-27 09:43:12 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

Yeah. It says I'm done with you, you moron.
How's that?

there you go, getting it wrong yet again..
but I am now. Good-bye

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-27 13:24:34 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

Yeah. It says I'm done with you, you moron.
How's that?

there you go, getting it wrong yet again..
but I am now. Good-bye

Well I did cancel that message. However, I guess it didn't take. I don't
think they do from the xNTL side of things.

Apologies for the insult. There was no call for it.

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-27 18:00:00 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by Rob Stanley
and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

Yeah. It says I'm done with you, you moron.
How's that?

there you go, getting it wrong yet again..
but I am now. Good-bye

Well I did cancel that message. However, I guess it didn't take. I
don't think they do from the xNTL side of things.

neither of us are on the xntl side.. and for what its worth xntl & xby use
the same text & binary servers these days.

clarification - the binary server does not honour/accept cancels from
users, however the text server does.

Post by Carl Waring
Apologies for the insult. There was no call for it.

i hope you were looking in the mirror when typing that!

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

chunkymunkey

2008-10-27 19:48:24 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
clarification - the binary server does not honour/accept cancels from
users, however the text server does.

are you sure? I will cancel this in the morning and confirm.

Rob Stanley

2008-10-27 20:08:11 UTC

chunkymunkey after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by chunkymunkey

Post by Rob Stanley
clarification - the binary server does not honour/accept cancels from
users, however the text server does.

are you sure? I will cancel this in the morning and confirm.

yup.. :o)

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

chunkymunkey

2008-10-27 21:19:05 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
chunkymunkey after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by chunkymunkey

Post by Rob Stanley
clarification - the binary server does not honour/accept cancels
from users, however the text server does.

are you sure? I will cancel this in the morning and confirm.

yup.. :o)

thx. I learn something new agin!!!!

Carl Waring

2008-10-27 21:25:44 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by Rob Stanley
and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

Yeah. It says I'm done with you, you moron.
How's that?

there you go, getting it wrong yet again..
but I am now. Good-bye

Well I did cancel that message. However, I guess it didn't take. I
don't think they do from the xNTL side of things.

neither of us are on the xntl side..

Are you sure? I'm now in Harrogate and have been since Dec '06. This is an
xNTL area.

So, you aren't /always/ right.

Post by Rob Stanley
and for what its worth xntl & xby use
the same text & binary servers these days.

That they do.

Post by Rob Stanley
clarification - the binary server does not honour/accept cancels from
users, however the text server does.

Post by Carl Waring
Apologies for the insult. There was no call for it.

i hope you were looking in the mirror when typing that!

Oh FFS. You can't even accept a bloody apology. WTF is wrong with you? :-/

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Rob Stanley

2008-10-27 23:27:36 UTC

Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s within

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by Rob Stanley
Carl Waring after much deep thought made the following comment/s

Post by Rob Stanley
and yet you keep coming back for more..
says a lot about you doesnt it?

Yeah. It says I'm done with you, you moron.
How's that?

there you go, getting it wrong yet again..
but I am now. Good-bye

Well I did cancel that message. However, I guess it didn't take. I
don't think they do from the xNTL side of things.

neither of us are on the xntl side..

Are you sure? I'm now in Harrogate and have been since Dec '06. This
is an xNTL area.
So, you aren't /always/ right.

please feel free to hace a victory wank at my expense..

Post by Rob Stanley
and for what its worth xntl & xby use the same text & binary servers
these days.

That they do.

so if you know this why would you think that the rules for xby & xntl would
be any different?

Post by Carl Waring
Apologies for the insult. There was no call for it.

i hope you were looking in the mirror when typing that!

Oh FFS. You can't even accept a bloody apology. WTF is wrong with you? :-/

but you went sayng it to me.. it was for everyone elses benifit as well as
your own.. you must have been really upset that the real you escaped for
a moment.

--
Rob
Life through my lens
http://www.rob-stanley.co.uk

f.u.b.virginmedia.users.photos.original
FAQ: http://virginmedia-users-photos-original.110mb.com

Carl Waring

2008-10-28 09:20:32 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
but you went sayng it to me.. it was for everyone elses benifit as
well as your own.. you must have been really upset that the real
you escaped for a moment.

I /was/ saying it to you. It /wasn't/ the "real me" particularly.

Anyway, that's me done on this thread. Feel free to have the last insult.

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

Richard Colton

2008-10-25 23:00:00 UTC

Post by Rob Stanley
no need.. youve already answered your own question.. youre just not
smart enough t see it.

More insults. Also, you'd make a really lousy teacher, you know ;-)

Post by Carl Waring
As in....

Post by Carl Waring
So what *is* the situation then?

nothing has changed.. youre still quite clueless.

Yet more insults.

FFS Carl, get over yourself.

If he'd called you a tosspot or and arrogant, clueless armpit sniffer, then
that could (just about - to me they seem pretty accurate.... ok, maybe not
the armpit sniffer, but the others fit pretty well) be considered an insult.
Personally I think Rob was being quite polite, and given some of your
ignorant rants over the years, you should consider his comments as
compliments.

Post by Carl Waring
Do you ever do anything other than insult people who you disagree with?

I can't speak for Rob, but I do, and in your case I'll make an exception if
you like?

--
Unlock Your Phone's Potential
www.UselessInfo.org.uk
www.ThePhoneLocker.co.uk
www.GSM-Solutions.co.uk

Carl Waring

2008-10-23 08:39:32 UTC

Post by PD
I really hope someone high up in VM reads this!!!! We are being
denied a service every other ISP provider can provide. Why not
VM????!!!!

Really? I don't think Sky provide Usenet access /or/ Webspace, so your
statement is clearly wrong.

--
Carl Waring
DigiGuide:
Full: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=1495
Web-based: http://getdigiguide.com/?p=3&r=1495

chunkymunkey

2008-10-23 10:23:31 UTC